Enlisted Professional Pay (College Degree Special Pay)

[vette88]

Originally Posted by DANOOK

I think some of you are missing the point, the question was asking about incentives for Enlisted because of the pay gap with Officers, would it be nice yes. The pay gap between Officers and Enlisted are huge and a big reason for the intial gap is college education. Most Enlisted come in without a degree so they are relagated to the lower pay scale so why not reward them when they get that degree with a little something extra? When can't argue the free TA and other educational benifits for the Enlisted because those benifits are also availble to Officers.

Another BIG reason for the pay gap is RESPONSIBILITY (yes, I know not ALL Officers are responsible, but the same could be said for the Enlisted too).

[KingOfBattle]

Originally Posted by vette88

Another BIG reason for the pay gap is RESPONSIBILITY (yes, I know not ALL Officers are responsible, but the same could be said for the Enlisted too).

I am a SFC, I have a 2LT that is the Platoon Leader. I have the same responsibilities as him but do not get paid near what he gets paid. He has less than a year time in service. I train and mentor him not the other way around. I run the day to day operations and for the majority of situations make most of the decisions based upon my experiences that he does not have. Yet, in two years (CPT) he will make more than a CSM. You see, with every rank that an NCO makes after E7, your responsibility parralels that of your Officer counterpart. Your duties are the same as that of your Officer counterpart and you will end up guiding and mentoring that Offficer yet you will make no where near the amount of money he/she makes. Not to mention that if anything goes wrong within the platoon, I will take the most heat, not him. Have you ever seen an Officer get demoted for anything that happens with one of his suboordinates, bet not, but I have seen many NCOs get busted down. They get a slap on the hand while our careers are on the line. Sounds to me that we have more to lose and more responsibilities when it comes down to it.

[vette88]

Originally Posted by KingOfBattle

I am a SFC, I have a 2LT that is the Platoon Leader. I have the same responsibilities as him but do not get paid near what he gets paid. He has less than a year time in service. I train and mentor him not the other way around. I run the day to day operations and for the majority of situations make most of the decisions based upon my experiences that he does not have. Yet, in two years (CPT) he will make more than a CSM. You see, with every rank that an NCO makes after E7, your responsibility parralels that of your Officer counterpart. Your duties are the same as that of your Officer counterpart and you will end up guiding and mentoring that Offficer yet you will make no where near the amount of money he/she makes. Not to mention that if anything goes wrong within the platoon, I will take the most heat, not him. Have you ever seen an Officer get demoted for anything that happens with one of his suboordinates, bet not, but I have seen many NCOs get busted down. They get a slap on the hand while our careers are on the line. Sounds to me that we have more to lose and more responsibilities when it comes down to it.

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with a lot of what you are saying. I am very thankful for the PSGs I had. Lord knows they kept me in line.

1. I'm going to guess the # of years you have in service is equal to what a MAJ or LTC has? Correct?

2. Army isn't going to get Officers by paying a new 2LT what a PVT makes (if you're going to go with # of years). If there is a shortage now, put that in place and see what happens.

3. Don't know the $s now, but a while back a 2LT (no prior experience) made just as much as an E6 with 10 years. What does it take now for an E6 or E7 to make as much as a brand new 2LT (no prior experience)? If I'm reading the chart right, my PSGs were making more than me (based on the # of years I know they had), and rightfully so.

http://www.peterson.af.mil/shared/me...-1234A-001.jpg

http://www.militaryfactory.com/military_pay_scale.asp

Are the attached links correct? If so, it takes an E6 to reach 6 years to make just a little more than a brand new 2LT. Not fair? Correct me if I'm wrong, but accroding to the scale an E7 is making more than a 2LT (based on the # of years it takes to make E7).

I might be reading these #s wrong/this might be an incorrect pay chart. If I am, let me know.

[KingOfBattle]

Originally Posted by vette88

Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with a lot of what you are saying. I am very thankful for the PSGs I had. Lord knows they kept me in line.

1. I'm going to guess the # of years you have in service is equal to what a MAJ or LTC has? Correct?

2. Army isn't going to get Officers by paying a new 2LT what a PVT makes (if you're going to go with # of years).

3. Don't know the $s now, but a while back a 2LT (no prior experience) made just as much as an E6 with 10 years. What does it take now for an E6 or E7 to make as much as a brand new 2LT (no prior experience)?

http://www.peterson.af.mil/shared/me...-1234A-001.jpg

http://www.militaryfactory.com/military_pay_scale.asp

Are the attached links correct? If so, it takes an E6 to reach 6 years to make just a little more than a brand new 2LT. Not fair? Correct me if I'm wrong, but accroding to the scale an E7 is making more than a 2LT (based on the # of years it takes to make E7).

I might be reading these #s wrong/this might be an incorrect pay chart. If I am, let me know.

No, you are right on this. But look around and see how much that same LT will make with three years time in service (typical time for an Officer to make CPT lately). Then look at the comparable pay for an E-8 with 16 years time in service (typical time to make E-8 in most combat arms MOSs.

[KingOfBattle]

I see this post going in the wrong direction. Yes, I just as everyone else has the opportunity to drop an OCS packet to even out the pay gap. I want to stay NCO and have many NCOs that I have seen get out once their degree was complete. I am just saying that we need professional, educated senior NCOs within our Corps too. The days of uneducated CSMs is gone. The Army wants its senior NCOs to be educated based on the new NCOES system. I am just saying, to get the ball rolling, why not give those who chose to stay enlisted a little more compensation? My thought is this could be a good thing and could help create that extra motivation for NCOs out there to work towards that degree. I am not saying that NCOs or Officers don't have their different roles to play, and yes, Officers do have more responsibilities as in report writing and answering for the good and the bad, but it is the enlisted that handle the day to day operations that run this Army. Most enlisted will not automatically respect anyone based on their rank alone and most Officers need that enlisted counterpart to carry forward their orders and fight the dumb stuff that does come down (behind closed doors) so that Officer can see the whole picture on what he is about to have his enlisted do. I mean, what is the downside of giving this special pay? Personally, I do not see any downside to this. If there was an incentive, there shouldn't be anyone who could skate through the system and collect that pay and make more rank by not doing their daily duties as well as going to school. The NCOER is not based upon how much civilian education you receive and a college degree does not guarantee you will be promoted on the next centralized promotion board. It is a plus to an NCOs career, and will not make an NCO a better leader or more compentant in their MOS. It can make an exceptional leader better though.

[MSMUROTC]

Being in the military now means that you can pretty much get your degree cost-free. Those who get degrees get promotion points for them, and will theoretically have skills that will enable faster promotions.

I fail to see why people should get extra money on top of a free degree and the secondary benefits that come along with getting said degree.

If higher enlisted rank requires (either in reality or de facto requires) getting an advanced degree, then that actually means there's LESS of a reason to give more money for getting a degree -- getting the additional pay from your promotion IS the extra money for getting the degree.

[MCGYVER]

Originally Posted by MSMUROTC

Being in the military now means that you can pretty much get your degree cost-free. Those who get degrees get promotion points for them, and will theoretically have skills that will enable faster promotions.

I fail to see why people should get extra money on top of a free degree and the secondary benefits that come along with getting said degree.

If higher enlisted rank requires (either in reality or de facto requires) getting an advanced degree, then that actually means there's LESS of a reason to give more money for getting a degree -- getting the additional pay from your promotion IS the extra money for getting the degree.

So I take it you don't feel that Soldiers should get pro pay for jump status, drill or recruiter status or medical specialty pays? Flight pay? Submarine duty pay? Enlistment bonuses? Reenlistment bonuses?

[Creaminess]

Originally Posted by KingOfBattle

I am a SFC, I have a 2LT that is the Platoon Leader. I have the same responsibilities as him but do not get paid near what he gets paid. He has less than a year time in service. I train and mentor him not the other way around. I run the day to day operations and for the majority of situations make most of the decisions based upon my experiences that he does not have. Yet, in two years (CPT) he will make more than a CSM. You see, with every rank that an NCO makes after E7, your responsibility parralels that of your Officer counterpart. Your duties are the same as that of your Officer counterpart and you will end up guiding and mentoring that Offficer yet you will make no where near the amount of money he/she makes. Not to mention that if anything goes wrong within the platoon, I will take the most heat, not him. Have you ever seen an Officer get demoted for anything that happens with one of his suboordinates, bet not, but I have seen many NCOs get busted down. They get a slap on the hand while our careers are on the line. Sounds to me that we have more to lose and more responsibilities when it comes down to it.

I agree that senior NCOs have responsibilities that are equivalent to (and in some cases, exceed) those of their officer counterparts. But does every senior NCO have a college degree? Are you going to give more money to the SFC with a degree than the SFC without, even though they have the same level of responsibility?

The answer isn't to increase pay for those enlisted who have college degrees; the answer is to balance out the pay chart to make pay in line with the level of responsibility. Degrees have nothing to do with that. Many good leaders in the Army don't have degrees, and many with master's degrees are not quality leaders.

If I've said it once, I've said it a million times: Having a college education does not automatically make you a good leader in the military. Hell, it doesn't automatically make you good at your job even if you're working in the field in which you hold a degree!

[Creaminess]

Originally Posted by MCGYVER

So I take it you don't feel that Soldiers should get pro pay for jump status, drill or recruiter status or medical specialty pays? Flight pay? Submarine duty pay? Enlistment bonuses? Reenlistment bonuses?

Enlistment/reenlistment bonuses and special duty assignment pays are different things and cannot be compared as equals.

If you've been trained as a drill sergeant, earned the badge, and are in an authorized drill sergeant position, you should be getting the special duty assignment pay that drill sergeants get. Does that mean you should get SDAP for the rest of your career once you come off the trail? Of course not. You get paid for having certain skills and then working in a position coded for that skill.

Unless a position calls for a college education in a certain concentration and the person filling it meets that requirement, they do not deserve SDAP for that job.

A lot of people are mixing apples and oranges here. You get SDAP for having a skill and working in a position that requires that skill. Are you going to give SDAP to an MP who has a bachelor's degree in some kind of law enforcement or criminal justice concentration, while telling an MP who has a bachelor's degree in English, business, or some other concentration not directly related to his/her job that they don't rate SDAP? Or do you get it automatically just for having a degree, even if your degree has absolutely nothing to do with what you do for the military?

Somebody who is airborne-qualified but not in an airborne position and on jump status doesn't get jump pay, not because he is no longer qualified to jump but because the Army has not put him in a position that requires his specialized training. Same for former drill sergeants, recruiters, etc.

Whatever happened to getting a degree because it was a way to better yourself for personal pride? Why should the Army authorize you $4500 a year in tuition assistance (along with many other educational benefits above that) and THEN pay you for getting the degree for which they are already paying? Do you want the Army to also hire somebody to take your classes for you while they're at it? Do something for yourself without crying that you're not being compensated for it.

I just got my evaluation back from the university with whom I'm taking online courses, and I'm very close to my degree. 120 credit hours I need, that school gave me 33 hours for my military education/experience and another 12 hours for CLEP tests that I took for free. So, of the 4 years of college I have to complete for this degree, I got 1 1/2 years' worth of credit without sitting through college classes. How many people who have never served in the military get that kind of deal? And even after I finish my career, I have college money through the post-9/11 GI Bill that I can either use myself or pass along to my wife or kids.

Stop crying about what you think you're being denied and appreciate the benefits you get in the military. If your rationale is that you can do better on the outside, then get out of the military. Nobody is forcing you to stay in if life is so grand elsewhere.

[MSMUROTC]

medical specialty pays - special skill to retain people who can make A LOT more out of the military

Flight pay - same

Submarine duty pay - dangerous / inconvenient / undesirable job duty pay (same concept as EOD, ABN, drill, recruiter pay)

Enlistment / Reenlistment bonuses - get people to join or stay in the Army, or an otherwise undesirable job

At the end of the day, the military has a budget. Paying people extra money on top of all the other benefits, both cash and career/life wise for getting a degree, is absolutely insane. You pay people extra money to have them do an undesirable or dangerous job, or to keep highly skilled individuals in position. Guess what? Getting a degree is not dangerous and a B.A. from Campbell University isn't exactly an impressive skill that needs to be retained.