No shave? No Problem!

[JARHEAD377]

Originally Posted by CplB

...a lot of words....

yea, I've never understood the lack of common sense that seems to run rampant in the Corps. I've seen some dumb shit since I joined the Corps. You pointed out some of the ignorance. So did the Gunny. But I suppose my only comment to this topic would be if you don't like it, and feel like you can't change it or fix it, then get out when you hit your EAS... just do your job while your still in ... I suppose the Group 3 will continue to run the Corps, like it has very successfully for the last 233+ years... to be honest, I found it amusing that a lot of the guys I knew that fit your group 1 & 2 that EAS'd with me in '95 ended up either living with mommy & daddy, going to jail, or came back to the Marines ...

oh, for the record, i might not shave on the weekends but I make sure I don't leave my house without a shave... common sense!

S/F

[CplVelociraptor]

Originally Posted by Gunny P

It's amusing that CplVelociraptor derails a mindset of generational superiority with the same breath he points out a superior opinion of those who enlisted in reaction to 9/11.

I never mentioned the word superior, I would merely expected to be treated as equal, but I'm not, and that is a bit irritating considering I hold myself and my Marines to high standards.

The fact is over the past 15 years there has been a real and concrete degradation in adherence to this grooming standard. Not realizing a Marine with firsthand observation of this points out his own ignorance. Every generation of Marines has bright and gifted NCOs. A generalization applied to one of these generations may or may not include those bright and gifted Marines and still apply to the majority. This is not a "10%" problem. I only wish. Spend half an hour one Sunday afternoon at the Jacksonville mall and you'll see it is closer to 60-70%.

It's even more unfortunate that, as KnoxRJ pointed out in his example of the errant sergeant major and CplVelociraptor's example of the CO, junior Marines aren't the only ones failing here. It's reasonable to presume that an unshorn Marine in his 30's or 40's (a) is not a lance corporal and (b) knows better and chooses to flaunt disregard for the standard.

What exactly is CplVelociraptor recommending to give some thought before posting comments? That there are good and bad leaders in our Corps? That there will always be the proverbial "10%"? How does he not realize a gunny would already know that? Knowing it, it's the duty of good NCOs and SNCOs to educate our Marines (then INSPECT vs. expect), advise our leaders and set the example. Perhaps he should learn to recognize a call to action before firing off a butt-hurt reply.

I realize that you see the proverbial "10%" or 60-70%, which is greatly over exaggerated, but that doesn't make up for the fact that the attitude of your first post was the same attitude that discourages competent leaders from remaining in the Marine Corps. As I said, that 10% will continue to grow as long as the mentality you presented in you first post is as common as it is, at least in my experience, which I will concede is a fairly limited one. Regardless, the impact is evident. If you interpret a reply that points out the flaws in your argument as butt-hurt, I can't help that. The last time I was butt hurt by a comment was several years ago when I didn't bear the title Marine.

[ibnEpaminondas]

Originally Posted by CplB

I know that the 3 model group is simplistic, but going into several others and sub-groups would be going into way too much detail for this forum. I mean granted there are people who joined for college money, people who are forced to re-enlist because they are stuck because they had a wife and kids during their first year, not to mention the freaks that join solely because they want to know what it's like to kill someone else.

Here we go again, if you decided to make the Marine Corps a career you were either forced into it, or you were an idiot who is of no use to the private sector, or you were a freak. A nice, convenient straw man that's easily knocked down to make an argument appear valid.

Apparently choosing a career in the Corps couldn't be for any good reasons--e.g., wanting to lead and positively influence subordinates, wanting to improve "the system," preferring the Corps' challenges over boring alternatives in the private sector, etc. Having had experience in the private sector before I chose to make the Corps a career, and now working as a professional after I retired, I'm very glad I chose a career in the Corps instead of being a lawyer, banker, airline pilot, etc. (All relatively boring careers.) When I tell my cohorts of my experiences in the Corps, they often regret they didn't serve.

I heard the "smart guys get out and only the idiots stay in" straw man argument throughout my career. Generally, the guys getting out (some great, some average, some bad) who vocally advocated this line of logic were either the guys looking to build themselves up by cutting down others, or guys trying to convince themselves that getting out was the right thing to do. In reality, those choosing to get out and those choosing to make it a career represent the same cross-section of abilities—some great, some average and some bad.

I've got news for you; everything you don't like about the Corps is often magnified in the private sector. Maybe you'll get lucky and find the perfect job working for the perfect boss, but the vast majority of us working in the private sector have people scattered throughout our company hierarchies that we consider idiots (e.g., the proverbial boss' son), we work for managers that enforce what we consider to be stupid rules, we work with peers that are lazy sacks of feces that get paid the same as us, etc. Oh, and that male vs female issue doesn't get any better...and standby for more quota-driven issues.

Recommendation: Don't try communicating with a company VP in the same manner you've communicated with Gunny P, even if he/she starts the conversation as the Gunny did...unless you're independently wealthy. Always maintain the moral high ground, regardless of what your opposition does.

…a lot of words…

[CplB]

I don't have time to write a full response, but I can make a quick comment...

"peers that are lazy sacks of feces that get paid the same as us"

I don't disagree with anything you said, but for me it's the 2nd Lt's are way more frustrating then people making the same amount, which in the private sector I can only imagine equates to the straight out of college douche that got hired into middle managment that knows far less than everyone they're in charge of. Where the only thing you can really learn from them is how to do a keg stand.

[ibnEpaminondas]

Keep your options open--i.e., continue to serve honorably. You never know what tomorrow might hold, and you may find yourself wanting to stay another four years. If not, at least you'll be able to look at yourself in the mirror when you're my age and know that you served honorably and gave it your best shot when you had the chance.

Best of luck.

[lizzie0728]

Originally Posted by axscntU8_Dpstv

I personally love seeing a well groomed Marine... Yummy!

I agree... well groomed men in uniform for me looks more decent and respectable.. (that was just a personal opinion, no intention of offending anyone)... nevertheless, men with mustached and beard can somehow look very musculine. Well it depends on the person wearing it. =)

[dkalis]

I shave whenever my face lets me. Razor bumps aren't no joke and that no shaving chit shit that medical gives out is only a temporary solution. When you get razor bumps you can tell me to shave every day.

[CplH5811]

Personally, I am not one to jump on another Marine for not shaving. Even though it is in the regulations, I have always been a supporter of terrorism awareness. Something that has been beaten into our heads more than the regulations. I have always found a large conflict in both doctrines. You are expected to look like a Marine 24/7 however, when on liberty you are expected to blend in. They do not have any common ground. Given both of the concepts, you are expected to look like a Marine but.....not? I would love a plausible explanation as to how to accomplish that. It's like enacting a liberty restriction where Marines can't leave base, but expecting them to not spend a majority of their time in their rooms. However, this is not an excuse to look like a bag of ass. When not required to wear a uniform, I see no issues with not shaving as long as it is kept withing reason. And, if certain exceptions are to be given to certain people (ie. Recon, no shave chit bearers....etc) how can anyone expect everyone to want to follow the rules? There is no rhyme nor reason to it.
With all of that being said though, I do understand where you are coming from Gunny P. And it should have fallen to the NCO's present to correct the Marine before you had to do it.
And, in the event notamotogrunt comes by, it has nothing to do with ones level of motivation, being a POG with nothing better to do, or any other twisted combination you could possibly think of. It has to do with doing what is right and correcting those that are wrong.

[Gunny_2862]

Certain exceptions are given for certain reasons, they are not handed out just because you want one so I believe that to be a bad example in this debate.

Terrorism awareness....funny, you didn't mention the fact that we all have our hair cut the same which makes us stand out, due to the lack of length, more than any clean shaven face here in the states. Now, if I was in a country like Afghanistan and told I had to live among the people and not stand out, I would hope that not getting short haircuts and shaving would be considered "Good Terrorism Awareness".

So please don't throw the anti-terrorism argument out there....I used a similar argument last year when discussing tattoos and such with Knox, but in a different context. I didn't try and use it as an excuse to do what amounts to laziness (on the marines part as well as disobeying a direct order) in a culture that cares nothing about a shaven or unshaven man. I did argue that for Knox to say having tattoos makes you stand out in instances such as anti-terrorism in other countries, I used the argument so does high and tights and belts with shirts tucked in in countries where that is not the norm.

I'd recommend not trying to pursue that argument any longer and go back to your first sentence "where you don't correct unshaven marines" and un-ass that mentality. IF you see it, correct it, let them know they are wrong. An NCO such a s yourself should start by enforcing these things in the barracks (even if you live in town or base housing, you still need to visit them) and making sure that NCO's check their marines before leaving. It's not a hard policy to set up with the Commandants new direction on NCO's having a say in marines weekend liberty.

let's stop arguing policy and either begin the process of having it changed or continue to enforce what we are told to enforce on our promotion warrants...remember what it read??

[SSgtAllen3381]

Personal pride is what it boils down to IMHO.

A buddy and I went riding a few months ago and stopped at a local "hole in the wall". We go in and order two drinks...a coke and I a Mt. Dew. We start to take off our jackets and our reflective vests. The "biker" at the bar looks at us like we stold something and giggles. I ask him what's so funny and he says, "why are you two wearing those vests?" I told him that we are PAID to wear them and left it at that.

So, what does this have to do with a proper shave? Well...we get PAID to follow the rules and regulations.