Yet another Minot CC bites the dust . . .

[BRAVO10000]

Originally Posted by Old AFCC Cat

When it comes down to brass tacks, if the NAF/CC has "lost confience" in his Wing/CC...what does that say about HIS ability to lead and mentor? After all, last I checked, the NAF is no more than an administrative/ADCON type function...

Not disagreeing with with your point, but I did want to point out that a NAF CC has an operational role and is generally "OPCONned" to a COCOM. The NAF CC is therefore responsible for the war-making capability of any subordinate operational unit.

In this case, the NAF - 8th AF - provides the air component for a functional COCOM. 8th AF provides bomber/missile support to USSTRATCOM and is also referred to as AFSTRAT/GS (Global Strike). STRATCOM also has oversight of 14th AF as AFSTRAT/SP (Space).

Anyway - just saying that it seems appropriate as the NAF/CC to be the authority to hold the wing, group and squadron CC accountable when we're talking about operational units.

[Michaep]

Originally Posted by BRUWIN

First we had to take a harmless video off the internet because it offended some overly senstive Marines. Now we have Army dependent wives to answer to? Seems like we are getting beat down at every opportunity.

lol who the f*** was the dependent wife married to? She had THAT much pull?

A full bird versus a dependent? really? and the dependent won? thats crazy

There has to be more to the story....either he had messed up too many times or she knew some General, or the argument was over something serious

[itsnotmyAFanymore]

Yes, it's become way too fashionable to fire commanders. So fashionable it's lost its effect. And, you keep firing HUMANS for not being PERFECT and you'll quickly run out of PEOPLE to run the AIR FORCE.

[BigBISSGuy]

Originally Posted by itsnotmyAFanymore

Yes, it's become way too fashionable to fire commanders. So fashionable it's lost its effect. And, you keep firing HUMANS for not being PERFECT and you'll quickly run out of PEOPLE to run the AIR FORCE.

While I agree in a limited sense with your post, there are some factors I believe you may be overlooking. First, there has never been a culture of perfection in the USAF. That is why the Core Value is Excellence...not perfection. If you look at one of the reasons for him being relieved, they got a "Not Ready" rating for the INSI. That doesn't require perfection, it requires preparation and compliance to a minimum standard...and it was not met. Standards are designed to be measurable in quanity, quality, and timeliness, and achievable by the average person. In the last 21 years, I have never read anywhere that we are paid to fly around and save kittens from tree tops with capes---we are paid to read, understand, and execute (thanks BISSBoss for the quote...). I would offer that while we read about the Wing CCs getting fired, and they are accountable for the actions of their subordinates, some of the lower ranking people need to feel the same bite as the Wing CCs because that is where the rubber meets the road. The mission has not changed in a very long time, and since people are becoming compelled to do what it takes to get promoted (i.e. joing this club or doing this going away luncheon), they have allowed that to become their primary mission instead of supporting their Wing CCs by being pros at what they are supposed to be doing---their jobs!

[BigT2002]

Originally Posted by Combat correspondent

This is a good point - what have we all become, a bunch of whiney fags? Smeg is rolling in his anger

Knowing tons in every branch, I agree lol

[BigT2002]

Originally Posted by BRAVO10000

Not disagreeing with with your point, but I did want to point out that a NAF CC has an operational role and is generally "OPCONned" to a COCOM. The NAF CC is therefore responsible for the war-making capability of any subordinate operational unit.

In this case, the NAF - 8th AF - provides the air component for a functional COCOM. 8th AF provides bomber/missile support to USSTRATCOM and is also referred to as AFSTRAT/GS (Global Strike). STRATCOM also has oversight of 14th AF as AFSTRAT/SP (Space).

Anyway - just saying that it seems appropriate as the NAF/CC to be the authority to hold the wing, group and squadron CC accountable when we're talking about operational units.

You're half right I think. The only NAF that actually had a legit OPCON was 9AF when it was dual hat as 9AF/USAFCENT. When they took that away, it became a glorified ADCON to ensure that whatever bases under their control are able to handle wartime efforts as prescribed by their MAJCOM, not the COCOM. 8AF is a little different now because of the GSC, but you probably know that better than I do because I'm not there.

[ChiefB]

Originally Posted by BigBISSGuy

While I agree in a limited sense with your post, there are some factors I believe you may be overlooking. First, there has never been a culture of perfection in the USAF. That is why the Core Value is Excellence...not perfection. If you look at one of the reasons for him being relieved, they got a "Not Ready" rating for the INSI. That doesn't require perfection, it requires preparation and compliance to a minimum standard...and it was not met. Standards are designed to be measurable in quanity, quality, and timeliness, and achievable by the average person. In the last 21 years, I have never read anywhere that we are paid to fly around and save kittens from tree tops with capes---we are paid to read, understand, and execute (thanks BISSBoss for the quote...). I would offer that while we read about the Wing CCs getting fired, and they are accountable for the actions of their subordinates, some of the lower ranking people need to feel the same bite as the Wing CCs because that is where the rubber meets the road. The mission has not changed in a very long time, and since people are becoming compelled to do what it takes to get promoted (i.e. joing this club or doing this going away luncheon), they have allowed that to become their primary mission instead of supporting their Wing CCs by being pros at what they are supposed to be doing---their jobs!

Bingo! Being an old SAC IG/NSI inspector, I can say you are right on message.

I think the bottom line is: The regular AF has lost its way in Nuclear Surety. Its playing catch-up with a neglected program.

Many of the “Couch Colonels” below these Wing Kings are really the culprits….along with their SNCOs. Me thinks.

No commander fails on his own, generally. There are many subordinates in the Squadrons and in the trenches that have failed him. They know who they are and hopefully so have the NSI inspectors identified them.

The elimination of SAC and all its regimentation and by-the-book operation in the area of nuclear surety was the kiss of death for Bomb and Missile wings.

The focus on conventional forces and terrorism has ripped the heart out of a once squared away and respected Nuc Surety program at our Bomb and Missile Wings.

Because of the need for excellence and bottom line... meeting an acceptable standard in Nuc Surety, you can be sure that AF will not relent until these standards are met by all.

If not, heads will continue to roll and careers will be affected adversly. "Not Ready or Marginal" are not options.

ChiefB

[BigBISSGuy]

Originally Posted by ChiefB

Bingo! Being an old SAC IG/NSI inspector, I can say you are right on message.

I think the bottom line is: The regular AF has lost its way in Nuclear Surety. Its playing catch-up with a neglected program.

Many of the “Couch Colonels” below these Wing Kings are really the culprits….along with their SNCOs. Me thinks.

No commander fails on his own, generally. There are many subordinates in the Squadrons and in the trenches that have failed him. They know who they are and hopefully so have the NSI inspectors identified them.

The elimination of SAC and all its regimentation and by-the-book operation in the area of nuclear surety was the kiss of death for Bomb and Missile wings.

The focus on conventional forces and terrorism has ripped the heart out of a once squared away and respected Nuc Surety program at our Bomb and Missile Wings.

Because of the need for excellence and bottom line... meeting an acceptable standard in Nuc Surety, you can be sure that AF will not relent until these standards are met by all.

If not, heads will continue to roll and careers will be affected adversly. "Not Ready or Marginal" are not options.

ChiefB

I couldn't agree more. The AF has reorganized so many times, especially under the McPeak regime, that there are a lot of grey areas when it comes to lines of responsibility, etc., and with it came the diluted nature of the enterprise. The push for Quality Air Force changed how the new breed of folks viewed things, and orders began being questioned, processes reviewed, and other things inconsistent with this kind of business. Startegic Air Command had it right--no doubts, but that too came after a lot of growing pains and theinsertion of General LeMay. It was not a "zero defect" business, and it was never meant to be. It was a command, in my opinion, that taught the internalization of the mission and lifestyle, something that has been lost since it was disbanded and the new threats have shown themselves. I think people have forgot what the term "silent sentinels" means to those of us in the enterprise. I think a good history lesson lays in wait for those willing to do the research.

[Texpat]

In my estimation -- the Air Force can afford to screw up a lot of shit.

But nukes ain't one of 'em.

I was SACumcised at Barksdale in the early 90s. It wasn't fun -- but the Air Force isn't all about bake sales, car washes and PT gear being zipped up or tucked in.

[BigBISSGuy]

Originally Posted by Texpat

In my estimation -- the Air Force can afford to screw up a lot of shit.

But nukes ain't one of 'em.

I was SACumcised at Barksdale in the early 90s. It wasn't fun -- but the Air Force isn't all about bake sales, car washes and PT gear being zipped up or tucked in.

I think Paul Fussell summed it up best in his book, "Wartime", where he wrote, "Chickenshit refers to behavior that makes military life worse than it need be: petty harassment of the weak by the strong; open scrimmage for power and authority and prestige... insistence on the letter rather than the spirit of ordinances. Chickenshit is so called -- instead of horse -- or bull -- or elephant shit -- because it is small-minded and ignoble and takes the trivial seriously. Chickenshit can be recognized instantly because it never has anything to do with winning the war." Instead of focusing on the trivialities, they need to get to the heart of the problem---the inability to foster a culture that recognizes the importance of nuclear surety, and while the Wing CC has a large role in this, the lower levels who are not buying into it, or better stated "GETTING IT", need to feel the heat, too!