No shave? No Problem!

[Gunny P]

Thank God Marines don't have to shave on leave and liberty any more.
That must be the case because wherever I go off base or even on base, I see unshaven Marines, especially on weekends. What a relief it must be.
It's nothing like the old days when Marines were clean shaven whether on duty or on leave and liberty, as written in MCO P1020.34G. The order states at the bottom of page 1-9 that, "Men will be well groomed at all times..." Who knew that "all times" didn't include leave and liberty? And it goes on to say, "The face will be clean-shaven, except that a mustache may be worn."
How awesome it must be for young Marines to just say "I don't feel like shaving today," and have nobody say anything to them about it.
Take the Marine I saw at an on-base barber shop Monday morning. When I asked why he hadn't shaved – obviously for several days – he replied, "Well, Gunny, I'm just coming off leave."
How nice.
And what a relief it must have been for the two NCOs in the room to not have to step up and lead. They replied that they didn't see him. Funny, I don't remember it being that much of a burden when I was a young NCO, but then again we policed our own back then and you wouldn't have gotten out of the barracks without being corrected.
Just take a stroll through any off-base retailer or mall Saturday or Sunday. You'll see what I'm talking about.
Well I for one am very relieved now that I don't have to ensure Marines meet grooming and appearance standards. Now I can enjoy trips in town with my family without having to break away to correct some unshaven knucklehead at the video store wearing flip-flops, moth-eaten shorts and a plain white t-shirt.
Hey, why don't we just start wearing our cammies out in town too? Heck, we can all wear them out on dates and shopping trips and anywhere we like. Why be bothered with little things like 'standards' and 'regulations?' That stuff just gets in the way, anyhow.
Now we can be just like everyone else. Who wants to stand out, anyway?
Or maybe, just maybe, NCOs can start setting the example and enforcing grooming standards. Here's another crazy thought: I and my fellow SNCOs hold Marines accountable; we enforce the 'Marine 24/7' concept, particularly when it comes to liberty.
Is this going to win any battles? Probably not. But I was taught adherence to standards and regulation helps develop the discipline to achieve the skills and abilities Marines need in training and combat. Will shaving on liberty help instill pride, attention to detail and obedience to regulations? Your call. But it's still a regulation and strict obedience to orders is one thing that sets Marines apart.
Crazy, I know.

[axscntU8_Dpstv]

I personally love seeing a well groomed Marine... Yummy!

[KnoxRJ]

Well Guns, welcome to the new younger Corps of today. With promotions flying out at the cyclic rate many Marines with rank on their collar have not been in long enough to learn the pride and respect that comes with earning the title, nor do they have the discipline to carry out the orders and courage to enforce them. The proof is in their words and actions in some cases. Such as when I served with one of the MLGs, we had a new SgtMaj check in and when the Group SgtMaj was welcoming him aboard he pointed out the problem the area was having with Marines not being clean shaven during off duty hours and this new SgtMaj actually told the senior SgtMaj that it was going to be hard to enforce that rule when he, himself, (the new SgtMaj) was prone to not shave on the weekends and just kick back and relax. I do not know what happened after that, everyone was asked to leave the meeting.

[ibnEpaminondas]

Though I get the point of your comments, and agree with the spirit, let's not tar everyone with the same brush. There are many good, young, motivated Marines in our Corps and many of them have performed as well on the battlefield as their predecessors. And then there's the same "10-percent" that have always been there and probably always will be. Marines have been breaking regulations since there have been regulations...including a few Sgts Maj. The obvious solution: lead by example (I'm sure you do), educate your subordinates (the purpose of your post), and write-up charge sheets on the offenders (as Nike would say: Just do it).

I'm surprised that notamotogrunt hasn't chimed in telling us how he's gone years without shaving...(just kidding).

[CplVelociraptor]

I believe proper grooming is important for Marines, regardless of whether or not they're on leave or liberty. On the other hand, I've heard my CO tell Marines not to shave over holidays with their families if they do not want to. This sets an example that's hard to override. I will tell my Marines that the reason they shave at all times is because they are a Marine at all times, and that doesn't mean knife handing your grandmother at home for undercooked potatoes, it means following the simple fundamentals that make us Marine. I would reprimand a Marine for not having a proper shave out in town, but I would also ask him "Why," just as you did. "I just got back from leave," is rarely the right answer, and I can see only a few situations in which it could be. Some might disagree, but if a Marine has been on a very long flight or something, than that might cause an unshaven appearance, and they should have a chance to defend themselves.

As for the original post, I can't help but laugh a little. This mentality that all Marines of newer generations, a generation that, might I remind you, signed up as a reaction to Sept. 11, 2001, are a bunch of fools and dirtbags is not only arrogant, but it's poisioning. Comments and leadership that live that ethos of "I'm superior, because I enlisted at this time," are the reason many very bright and gifted corporals and sergeants are leaving the Marine Corps at their EAS. Generalizing only shows your ignorance of the make-up of the Marine Corps, which has already been stated. There will always be that 10%, and with the violent rift that's taking place between senior leadership, and junior leadership right now, that percentage is only growing.

If I based by attitude on gunnys, for example, on one or two individuals, I could certainly take a scalpel to their reputation, just as you've done here. But, I remind myself that I have met a small number of senior enlisted who have looked out for me, and other Marines, and their shining example has greatly outweighed the abysmal leadership and example I have received from others. I think that many Marines would agree with me on that, some may be less patient though. Perhaps you should give that some thought before making these comments.

[Gunny P]

It's amusing that CplVelociraptor derails a mindset of generational superiority with the same breath he points out a superior opinion of those who enlisted in reaction to 9/11.

The fact is over the past 15 years there has been a real and concrete degradation in adherence to this grooming standard. Not realizing a Marine with firsthand observation of this points out his own ignorance. Every generation of Marines has bright and gifted NCOs. A generalization applied to one of these generations may or may not include those bright and gifted Marines and still apply to the majority. This is not a "10%" problem. I only wish. Spend half an hour one Sunday afternoon at the Jacksonville mall and you'll see it is closer to 60-70%.

It's even more unfortunate that, as KnoxRJ pointed out in his example of the errant sergeant major and CplVelociraptor's example of the CO, junior Marines aren't the only ones failing here. It's reasonable to presume that an unshorn Marine in his 30's or 40's (a) is not a lance corporal and (b) knows better and chooses to flaunt disregard for the standard.

What exactly is CplVelociraptor recommending to give some thought before posting comments? That there are good and bad leaders in our Corps? That there will always be the proverbial "10%"? How does he not realize a gunny would already know that? Knowing it, it's the duty of good NCOs and SNCOs to educate our Marines (then INSPECT vs. expect), advise our leaders and set the example. Perhaps he should learn to recognize a call to action before firing off a butt-hurt reply.

[UnCommon Sense]

Originally Posted by Gunny P

Is this going to win any battles? Probably not. But I was taught adherence to standards and regulation helps develop the discipline to achieve the skills and abilities Marines need in training and combat. Will shaving on liberty help instill pride, attention to detail and obedience to regulations? Your call. But it's still a regulation and strict obedience to orders is one thing that sets Marines apart. Crazy, I know.

I'd like to play devil's advocate here and throw out a rhetorical question or two...

Have you ever given or received oral sex since you've enlisted or since you were promoted into the NCO/SNCO ranks? Do you currently engage in those activities? Article 125, UCMJ clearly prohibits this. If the definition of integrity is "doing the right thing when no one else is around" (other than your activity buddy, of course), then violating that or any other article of the UCMJ is not exactly exercising integrity or maintaining strict obedience to orders and regulations.

Do you use profanity (indecent language)? Have you used it in front of your Marines? Have you used profanity in front of children (yours or others)? This is prohibited under a subparagraph of Article 134, UCMJ.

People need to be careful when they try to make a point about how straight and narrow they are all the time, yet they may not even be aware of how far from it they actually are. You may ask, "Well, whom is sodomy hurting if it's in my bedroom, between my wife and me?" Well, "It's still a regulation and strict obedience to orders is one thing that sets Marines apart."

Back to the subject at hand, it is wrong and in fact stupid for a Marine to be parading around out of regs without a chit or something from medical. I would not make such a huge deal of it if a Marine were SIQ or lounging at his home/room on a weekend with no intention of going out and answers his door in pajamas with no shave. (He'd better clean up before going out, though.) Some people don't necessarily need no shave chits, but they do need to give their skin a break every now and then, and as long as they aren't presenting themselves publicly, it's not a big deal. It's a bit extreme to lambast someone for not shaving and remaining in the privacy of his own home. Marines being unshaven or wearing shower shoes (imaginary "sandals"), hats backwards or sideways, pants that expose underwear, or other unpresentable attire out and about...that's a problem, and on that you do have a point.

[mmarine20]

Overall, just because a few NCO's were witnessed not correcting another Marine doesn't mean all NCO's aren't doing their job. It's like me saying, "I saw a SNCO in the PX just the other day wearing flip-flops and a tank-top. That must mean all SNCO's are messed up." Let's all agree the Marine Corps, throughout it's time, had and will always have, a few Marines who don't obey the rules. It's not the "new younger corps of today."

[supermaus]

Originally Posted by Gunny P

Thank God Marines don't have to shave on leave and liberty any more.
That must be the case because wherever I go off base or even on base, I see unshaven Marines, especially on weekends. What a relief it must be.
It's nothing like the old days when Marines were clean shaven whether on duty or on leave and liberty, as written in MCO P1020.34G. The order states at the bottom of page 1-9 that, "Men will be well groomed at all times..." Who knew that "all times" didn't include leave and liberty? And it goes on to say, "The face will be clean-shaven, except that a mustache may be worn."
How awesome it must be for young Marines to just say "I don't feel like shaving today," and have nobody say anything to them about it.
Take the Marine I saw at an on-base barber shop Monday morning. When I asked why he hadn't shaved – obviously for several days – he replied, "Well, Gunny, I'm just coming off leave."
How nice.
And what a relief it must have been for the two NCOs in the room to not have to step up and lead. They replied that they didn't see him. Funny, I don't remember it being that much of a burden when I was a young NCO, but then again we policed our own back then and you wouldn't have gotten out of the barracks without being corrected.
Just take a stroll through any off-base retailer or mall Saturday or Sunday. You'll see what I'm talking about.
Well I for one am very relieved now that I don't have to ensure Marines meet grooming and appearance standards. Now I can enjoy trips in town with my family without having to break away to correct some unshaven knucklehead at the video store wearing flip-flops, moth-eaten shorts and a plain white t-shirt.
Hey, why don't we just start wearing our cammies out in town too? Heck, we can all wear them out on dates and shopping trips and anywhere we like. Why be bothered with little things like 'standards' and 'regulations?' That stuff just gets in the way, anyhow.
Now we can be just like everyone else. Who wants to stand out, anyway?
Or maybe, just maybe, NCOs can start setting the example and enforcing grooming standards. Here's another crazy thought: I and my fellow SNCOs hold Marines accountable; we enforce the 'Marine 24/7' concept, particularly when it comes to liberty.
Is this going to win any battles? Probably not. But I was taught adherence to standards and regulation helps develop the discipline to achieve the skills and abilities Marines need in training and combat. Will shaving on liberty help instill pride, attention to detail and obedience to regulations? Your call. But it's still a regulation and strict obedience to orders is one thing that sets Marines apart.
Crazy, I know.

I think we look at the wrong places for enforcement. As long as we have Officers and Senior NCO's that think their rank gives them the right to kick regulatios with their feet, we will have junior soldiers do the same. This problem needs fixing from the TOP.

[ibnEpaminondas]

CplB,

You may want to rethink your model regarding motives for joining the Corps. For someone who professes others to be idiots, particularly those choosing to make the Corps a career, your simplistic model displays a lack of intellect and maturity…among other things. I’m sure you’re smarter than your model implies.

I’ll agree with your AT/FP points in your first paragraph. The stupidity of DoD’s recommendations and AFN’s AT/FP commercials about blending in with your surroundings always came off as the bureaucracy covering its collective butt so that it could appear to have taken preventative measures if Americans were attacked.

There are times to modify the regulations. For instance, I grew an out-of-regs mustache while serving in Iraq—not to flaunt the regs or blend in—but because it served as a cultural ice-breaker when dealing with the Iraqis (more effective than one would think). Periodically some well-meaning but short-sighted Marine would attempt to tell me why I needed to shave. I would explain the situation, thank them for their reminder, and proceed on my way—it only took a few seconds and was a professional way to handle the issue. Bottom line: I had good reasons for doing what I was doing, and I knew I could justify it if someone attempted to bring me up on charges. OBTW, all but a handful of your Group 3 idiots “got it.”

To get back to the Gunny’s original point, I would have a difficult time justifying why I needed to not comply with proper grooming standards while stationed in or traveling around CONUS. Same thing if I was stationed at any of the large bases in WestPac or Europe. Military types with a two or three day growth don’t easily blend in and are pretty easy to spot. Now, if you go to someplace with a limited American presence, e.g., Morocco on vacation, then I would say that modified grooming standards should be easy to justify.

Regarding your male vs female Marines, I recommend you start another thread. But I’ll guarantee you that it’s been covered…again…and again.