No shave? No Problem!

[CplH5811]

Originally Posted by Gunny_2862

Certain exceptions are given for certain reasons, they are not handed out just because you want one so I believe that to be a bad example in this debate.

Terrorism awareness....funny, you didn't mention the fact that we all have our hair cut the same which makes us stand out, due to the lack of length, more than any clean shaven face here in the states. Now, if I was in a country like Afghanistan and told I had to live among the people and not stand out, I would hope that not getting short haircuts and shaving would be considered "Good Terrorism Awareness".

So please don't throw the anti-terrorism argument out there....I used a similar argument last year when discussing tattoos and such with Knox, but in a different context. I didn't try and use it as an excuse to do what amounts to laziness (on the marines part as well as disobeying a direct order) in a culture that cares nothing about a shaven or unshaven man. I did argue that for Knox to say having tattoos makes you stand out in instances such as anti-terrorism in other countries, I used the argument so does high and tights and belts with shirts tucked in in countries where that is not the norm.

I'd recommend not trying to pursue that argument any longer and go back to your first sentence "where you don't correct unshaven marines" and un-ass that mentality. IF you see it, correct it, let them know they are wrong. An NCO such a s yourself should start by enforcing these things in the barracks (even if you live in town or base housing, you still need to visit them) and making sure that NCO's check their marines before leaving. It's not a hard policy to set up with the Commandants new direction on NCO's having a say in marines weekend liberty.

let's stop arguing policy and either begin the process of having it changed or continue to enforce what we are told to enforce on our promotion warrants...remember what it read??

The reason I didn't bring up haircuts is because that is not the topic at hand.

With that being said Gunny, I do not think that Marines should be running around with full blown beards because it's their weekend off. But, if a Marine is on liberty, I find that to be a slightly different story. I don't know too many Marines, except here in Japan, that take leave and just stay on base. Because of that, they go home to wherever they are from and and supposed to blend in. And I understand that there are many civilians out there that have short haircuts similar to those of us in the military but they are not the majority. Those are the people we are supposed to look like, the majority. Even if someone takes the full 45 days of leave allowed, that's not enough time for a normal male to grow a mop on the top of their head or a full beard.

And I choose not to enforce shaving every waking moment of my life because I am too busy looking out for the welfare of my junior Marines. Which is something that I have noticed a lot of my fellow NCOs and SNCOs have forgotten. Instead of being so worried about whether or not my Marines have their shirts tucked in and a fresh shave before they go to the E club for a beer after they get off a 14 hour shift, I am more focused on their mental stability and learning about them so that I can be a more effective leader and example to them. I fully agree with SSgt Allen in that it all falls on a matter of personal pride. If it gets out of hand, yes I correct my Jr Marines on their lack of a shave, but that is not my only focus. I would much rather my Marines be able to come to me with their issues with a little stubble on their face than to have them not want to come near me because they're going to get a "uniform" inspection prior to them taking what little time they have to relax before they go out and do it all again tomorrow.

I could care less if I am called a poor NCO because I don't correct someone about their shave. As an NCO, I have been appointed to look out for the welfare of, and provide an example to, my junior Marines. They are my priority and I am always shaven when they see me. So, by setting a positive example and inspiring my fellow NCOs to do so, that is what will fix the problems faster than getting checked once by some random person in the PX.

[Toogr82h8]

I honestly dont believe that the problem is as big as you make it. Marines have been breaking the rules forever! I joined in 2001, Yeah yeah im a boot, and the second I stepped on deck I have Corporals, who had only been in maybe 2 years longer than I, telling me how the Corps was getting softer. I completely disagree! I hold my Marines to a high standard and I guarentee that when they go out they are not in this category. The people who say that the Corps is getting softer are the ones that are getting softer. Sure, you cant beat the crap out of a guy anymore. Guess what though, you probably never should have.

Stop blaming the NCO's for their troops being jacked up. Blame yourself for not training your NCO's and Junior Marines to hold their Marines to standards. If you have a problem correcting deficiancies then get out cause you will always have to do that.

R/S

SERGEANT
I-I Staff
A Co, 4th CEB, 4th MARDIV

[SSgtAllen3381]

Sgt togreatohate, I don't think it's a matter of Marines "just not shaving". It's the overall impression that this Marine gives off about himself. Does he not care that he's breaking rules/reg's? Does he not care that his NCO/SNCO have taken the time to lead him in the right direction? We all went to Boot Camp and know from DAY 1...Marines shave when they get up in the morning. It's as simple as that. I take it that these Marines just don't give a f**k about following rules...period. He is probably the same Marine at work that has to be told to do everything, no matter how well he's "trained" he will do what he wants when no one is looking...we've all done that in some small way.

I won't sit here and say that I shave every single day when I'm on leave. But, I have a retired Vietnam Veteran (Marine) living across the street that I talk to every day when I'm home on leave. If I know I'm going outside, I make sure I shave; that goes for anytime I go out. But, I don't want his mean old ass getting in mine because I'm lacking on my pride of the Marine Corps. Public image is a big thing. We all know how people react to us when we go home...they love the Marines and the Marine Corps. Why tarnish that image because "I'm on leave and I didn't feel like shaving"? The Marine(s) in question...just don't care.

[Toogr82h8]

Originally Posted by SSgtAllen3381

Sgt togreatohate, I don't think it's a matter of Marines "just not shaving". It's the overall impression that this Marine gives off about himself. Does he not care that he's breaking rules/reg's? Does he not care that his NCO/SNCO have taken the time to lead him in the right direction? We all went to Boot Camp and know from DAY 1...Marines shave when they get up in the morning. It's as simple as that. I take it that these Marines just don't give a f**k about following rules...period. He is probably the same Marine at work that has to be told to do everything, no matter how well he's "trained" he will do what he wants when no one is looking...we've all done that in some small way.

I won't sit here and say that I shave every single day when I'm on leave. But, I have a retired Vietnam Veteran (Marine) living across the street that I talk to every day when I'm home on leave. If I know I'm going outside, I make sure I shave; that goes for anytime I go out. But, I don't want his mean old ass getting in mine because I'm lacking on my pride of the Marine Corps. Public image is a big thing. We all know how people react to us when we go home...they love the Marines and the Marine Corps. Why tarnish that image because "I'm on leave and I didn't feel like shaving"? The Marine(s) in question...just don't care.

SSgt, I agree that it is not only the Marine not shaving. There are plenty of Marines who just dont care. I, like you, will not shave for a day or two at a time if I am not leaving my house. However, if I am stepping outside I do. I am currently on I-I duty in WV and I would never want to tarnish the image of Marines to those who dont see many on a regular basis.

With that all being said if we hold our Marines accountable on a daily basis then these small things do not come up. I have had many Marines who "dont care" I deal with them in a as they come. Sure you will always have your turds who will not adapt. I dont believe that those Marines are the ones that are being seen out there. I believe a majority of them are the ones that just are not being lead by example. I would also be willing to bet that some are young corporals and sergeants as well. Before I PCS'd I was with Maintenance Bn in Pendleton and many of the Marines who checked in as PFC's and LCpls when I was a junior Sgt were fresh Sgt's as I left. I had one Marine, who during my run as PLT SGT spent many many 0300 Morning scrubbing the maintenance bay with me there 15 minutes earlier than him. At my going away that Marine told me that although he hated my guts for making him come in 3 hours before the other Marines he was always impressed that I was always there crisp and clean waiting for him like I never left.

Now I am not trying to toot my own horn but that Marine is a very good NCO now. He was your definitive "turd" back then but with good leadership and being held accountable he changed. There needs to be more leaders willing to sacrifice their own comforts to benefit the growth of others.

Sgt Snyder (toogr82h8 is just a default user name for almost all of my internet stuff, it stuck about 6 years ago)

[Gunny_2862]

The reason I didn't bring up haircuts is because that is not the topic at hand.

That's fine, but to throw out athat by shaving it somehow goes against anti-terrorism training is ridiculous, hence the reason I brought it up. Which when put in context of your ATFP statment, is well within topic parameters.

And I choose not to enforce shaving every waking moment of my life because I am too busy looking out for the welfare of my junior Marines.

Then you openly choose to Disobey a Lawful order. This is not subject to debate, why do you believe it is?

Which is something that I have noticed a lot of my fellow NCOs and SNCOs have forgotten. Instead of being so worried about whether or not my Marines have their shirts tucked in and a fresh shave before they go to the E club for a beer after they get off a 14 hour shift, I am more focused on their mental stability and learning about them so that I can be a more effective leader and example to them.

Whoa turbo, now your attempting to justify to you, me and everyone else who can read this as to why you willingly disobey Marine Corps policy. I can enforce these regulations, set the example, and still be aware of all the marines under my charge and there mental states and/or morale levels. Don't use this to justify disobedience and/or the inability to give one iota of a damn about Marine Corps regualtions.

I could care less if I am called a poor NCO because I don't correct someone about their shave. As an NCO, I have been appointed to look out for the welfare of, and provide an example to, my junior Marines. They are my priority and I am always shaven when they see me. So, by setting a positive example and inspiring my fellow NCOs to do so, that is what will fix the problems faster than getting checked once by some random person in the PX.

If you set the example and do the right thing, then you should also take offense when your marines do not do the same for you. If they do that, they may respect you as a friend and not the NCO you should be. Remember, by just setting the example and then not doing the harder part by correcting them, you are not going to fix the problem.

I still cannot believe I am having this discussion with an NCO. If you were just offering your opinion on why you think it SHOULD be ok, I'd be alright with that, but the fact that you allow it to continue when you see it, ESPECIALLY with your own marines, is downright crazy. You should look in and take stock of yourself as an NCO, please re-read what it means to follow orders, even those we disagree with. Please don't continue to be part of the problem and then tell all of us how you don't care to follow regs, become part of the solution.

[Toogr82h8]

Originally Posted by Gunny_2862

If you set the example and do the right thing, then you should also take offense when your marines do not do the same for you. If they do that, they may respect you as a friend and not the NCO you should be. Remember, by just setting the example and then not doing the harder part by correcting them, you are not going to fix the problem.

I still cannot believe I am having this discussion with an NCO. If you were just offering your opinion on why you think it SHOULD be ok, I'd be alright with that, but the fact that you allow it to continue when you see it, ESPECIALLY with your own marines, is downright crazy. You should look in and take stock of yourself as an NCO, please re-read what it means to follow orders, even those we disagree with. Please don't continue to be part of the problem and then tell all of us how you don't care to follow regs, become part of the solution.

We cannot pick and choose what orders we want to follow. I personally hate the tattoo policy but would not, now, go and get one in the areas that a prohibited. Would I let my Marines, NO! I am with the Gunny on this one. If you dont care that people think you are a poor NCO then you should not be an NCO. You should never leave that up to interpretation, you either are a good NCO or your not. Sure we all need a little nudge in the right direction here and there but we should NEVER allow something as small as a shave go unchecked. I assure you that if your Marines are not disciplined in the areas that are small that you will be looking out for their welfare a lot more in the larger negative areas. We solve a lot of headaches by demanding the small things.

Sgt Snyder

[Toogr82h8]

Originally Posted by CplH5811

Even if someone takes the full 45 days of leave allowed, that's not enough time for a normal male to grow a mop on the top of their head or a full beard.

Guess again, that is plenty of time for them to look like a bag nasty! A Marine with a low reg after two weeks looks like a Recruit stepping on the yellow footprints.

I dont mean to pick on anyone but your tag is CplH5811, I think that means you are an MP. Dont you hand out MOR's like candy at the gates for things like Marines coming in on the weekend without a shave. That is part of your job, and if you do that then you should have no problem making your Marines do that.

Sgt Snyder

[CplVelociraptor]

Originally Posted by Toogr82h8

We cannot pick and choose what orders we want to follow. I personally hate the tattoo policy but would not, now, go and get one in the areas that a prohibited. Would I let my Marines, NO! I am with the Gunny on this one. If you dont care that people think you are a poor NCO then you should not be an NCO. You should never leave that up to interpretation, you either are a good NCO or your not. Sure we all need a little nudge in the right direction here and there but we should NEVER allow something as small as a shave go unchecked. I assure you that if your Marines are not disciplined in the areas that are small that you will be looking out for their welfare a lot more in the larger negative areas. We solve a lot of headaches by demanding the small things.

Sgt Snyder

I agree. Your ability to be an NCO is only reflected by those who follow you. You are never out to do anything, or look anyway for yourself or other NCOs alone. If you are, then you HAVE forgotten your Marines' welfare. I don't think that's you, though. I once thought a little more like you do, and then I realized the senselessness of not shaving, or a not following the simple regulations involved in being a Marine. Someone is always watching you. Someone is always watching LCpl Marine, and Cpl Toughguy. If you do not follow through, by correcting Marines for not following the example you set, than other Marines will observe this, and this plague of "The Marine Corps of-do-as-you-please" is still going to spread.

It's not a matter of "WTF DIDN'T YOU SHAVE MARINE," it's "Why won't you do something as simple as shave every morning?" Maybe they're out of razors, go buy them some with your finely shaved face. Maybe they're convince you're their buddy and aren't going to say anything to them anyway. Who knows? Just correct them and be done with it. If you have a friendly relationship, and they suddenly get angry because you are exercising authority which only benefits them in the long run, then they probably weren't a great friend in the first place.

[Toogr82h8]

Originally Posted by CplVelociraptor

Maybe they're convince you're their buddy and aren't going to say anything to them anyway. Who knows? Just correct them and be done with it. If you have a friendly relationship, and they suddenly get angry because you are exercising authority which only benefits them in the long run, then they probably weren't a great friend in the first place.

This point right here is "the plague". I have always thought it would be very beneficial to PCS/PCA freshly promoted NCO's to avoid this from happening. Unfortunately, many Marines cannot seperate their professional and personal lives when it comes to doing right and wrong.

[CplVelociraptor]

Originally Posted by Toogr82h8

This point right here is "the plague". I have always thought it would be very beneficial to PCS/PCA freshly promoted NCO's to avoid this from happening. Unfortunately, many Marines cannot seperate their professional and personal lives when it comes to doing right and wrong.

I am very fortunate to have junior Marines that came to me ready to understand the difference between friendship and video games at the barracks, and being excellent, motivated individuals from 0700-1900 or 0730-1630, depending on your current location, haha.

Regardless, Marines that can't bear to imagine a friendship lost have failed to realize the simple fact that you can't be responsible for someone else's lack of maturity in that matter. We are infinitely responsibile, however, for the maturity they present in the workplace, and when we see them off-duty. Ideally, everyone would know where the line is drawn, but with a new generation comes not only a great deal of quality innovation and leadership values, but a cluster of idiots too.