CSM Lacks Combat Badge

[DS19D]

As I read the letter to the editor in the latest Army Times regarding the new DS School CSM, I couldn't help but be reminded of the recent words of my own Command Sergeant Major at Ft Jackson. 'Don't check up, check down' he said, one shouldn't troubleshoot, comment on, or even inspect those above you to maintain a standard. Your responsibility as a NCO is to enforce standards of those below you. Those of you who have never had the honor and privilege of serving at a TRADOC installation, particularly FT Jackson might not know the unofficial motto - Do as I say, not as I've done.

[standstillplease]

And that's exactly the reason I am over joyed the quality management program is back in place. It will remove those senior NCO's from our ranks that truly believe they are above the standard and or regulation.

[MCGYVER]

Originally Posted by DS19D

As I read the letter to the editor in the latest Army Times regarding the new DS School CSM, I couldn't help but be reminded of the recent words of my own Command Sergeant Major at Ft Jackson. 'Don't check up, check down' he said, one shouldn't troubleshoot, comment on, or even inspect those above you to maintain a standard. Your responsibility as a NCO is to enforce standards of those below you. Those of you who have never had the honor and privilege of serving at a TRADOC installation, particularly FT Jackson might not know the unofficial motto - Do as I say, not as I've done.

This is a ridiculous statement. Basically it is another way of saying that if the boss breaks the law it's okay because he's the boss. If you are wrong, you are simply wrong, regardless of the rank or position you hold. To say that some are above scrutiny or comment is to give special treatment. We don't do that in the army. I will not use my grade or position to obtain pleasure, profit or personal safety.

[cobra6]

Just like that clown who is the CSM of the Army...thinks that he is above everything...he should be run out of the Army on a rail...instead of dealing with real issues in the Army he is more interested in changing the Army Blues into a version of a mall security guard uniform.....I have very little faith in alot of the CSMs I see now in the Army....they are afraid to enforce standards...it makes me sick.

[MARKTREPANIER]

Originally Posted by MCGYVER

This is a ridiculous statement. Basically it is another way of saying that if the boss breaks the law it's okay because he's the boss. If you are wrong, you are simply wrong, regardless of the rank or position you hold. To say that some are above scrutiny or comment is to give special treatment. We don't do that in the army. I will not use my grade or position to obtain pleasure, profit or personal safety.

I'm certainly hoping the "Do as I say, not as I've done" statement was meant sarcastically. As a former NCO who's now a warrant officer, I don't have any problem telling a superior if they are out of regulation about something, and I would certainly hope that senior leaders would never tell subordinates that it's not their business to correct seniors when they see a deficiency. The standard is there for everybody. Seniors must uphold it if we want juniors to uphold standards as well.

[Creaminess]

On the one hand, a combat patch does not make you a leader. There are a lot of people with combat patches who I would not consider good leaders, and I think the majority of us know somebody who fits that description.

On the other hand, it's hard for me to look up to somebody with nearly 30 years in the Army who's never deployed. I've been in TRADOC, and I know TRADOC can be unpleasant, but some people still go there to hide. I won't run down CSM King's bio on this board, but suffice it to say she's had a handful of tough jobs and also a handful of pretty primo jobs in cushy places. We're eight years into Operation Enduring Freedom and six-and-a-half years into Operation Iraqi Freedom; if you don't have a combat patch and you've been on active duty that entire time, chances are you've been avoiding deployment. If you see her bio, you know that CSM King has been at Fort Jackson or in Belgium almost the entire time since 9/11. If she wanted to deploy, she could easily have found a way to do it. I'll just leave it at that.

[CrimLaw]

What I don't understand is, if a Drill Sergeant's job is to turn a civilian into a combat-ready Soldier, why DO we have Drill Sergeants who have never deployed and never experienced combat? And yes, there are a TON of people who 'camp out' at Jackson. I've only been here a short while and I am ready to leave! Send me to FORSCOM!

[bravohotel43]

Originally Posted by MARKTREPANIER

I'm certainly hoping the "Do as I say, not as I've done" statement was meant sarcastically. As a former NCO who's now a warrant officer, I don't have any problem telling a superior if they are out of regulation about something, and I would certainly hope that senior leaders would never tell subordinates that it's not their business to correct seniors when they see a deficiency. The standard is there for everybody. Seniors must uphold it if we want juniors to uphold standards as well.

While I do believe he meant that comment sarcastically, I also have to say that from my experience with the Army (which has been in T-Comm's, or what you call TRADOC), he's right. I know that at any training command, there's going to be rules put in place for the students that the staff doesn't have to put up with. However, I would see students who were SGTs or SSGs get blown off by the staff their same rank if they did something that was technically punishable under the UCMJ. As a Marine, we're taught from day one that if someone is jacked up, you need to find a way to tell them, even if it's a 4-star. When I talked to my fellow junior servicemembers in the Army, it sounds like they aren't taught that anymore.

[MCGYVER]

It's the new, *cough* improved (a.k.a. kinder/gentler/politically correct/genderless/yeswecan/changewecanbelievein) Army. Nuff said.

[Creaminess]

Not only does she have no combat deployments, but she has no operational deployments (Somalia, Haiti, Kuwait, Bosnia, Kosovo, etc.) either. Here's a list of places she's been:

Germany (3 years)
Fort Dix (nearly 3 1/2 years)
Fort McNair (10 months)
Pentagon (5 1/2 years)
Fort Bragg (little over 2 years)
Korea (12 months...postal unit)
Fort Bragg (3 1/2 years)
Fort Bliss (USASMA)
Fort Bragg (1 year)
Fort Jackson (just over 2 years)
SHAPE, Belgium (just over 2 years)
Fort Jackson (2 years and counting)

BTW, anybody can get this info if they dig deep enough. This isn't something I had to have special permissions to find or anything like that.

I agree with the point that drill sergeants who turn citizens into combat-ready Soldiers should have been through combat themselves. To be fair to CSM King, she was a drill in the early to mid 80s, so that was well before what's going on now. But today, there shouldn't be a single drill on the trail who hasn't deployed at least once to Iraq or Afghanistan.

I should state that CSM King is not the only senior leader without a patch. When I see SFCs and above, CW3s and above, and MAJs and above who don't have patches, I immediately assume the worst, and maybe unfairly so. After all, AR 670-1 states you don't HAVE to wear a combat patch. However, I have yet to meet a person who's authorized a combat patch and doesn't wear it. It simply makes you look inferior in the eyes of a lot of others, and while many people state they don't care what others think about them, the fact of the matter is that IS something about which almost everybody is conscious. If you've been in the Army over 10 years and you haven't been downrange, there IS something going on, and nobody can tell me differently. I keep hearing that there are people who want to deploy but are never given the opportunity, but I don't believe that for a second. If you want to go, you'll find a way, and no assignment manager is going to tell somebody who hasn't deployed that he or she cannot PCS to a deployable/deploying unit to do their fair share.

With all this said, CSM King is in a very high-profile position because she's the first female ever to serve as the commandant of the United States Army Drill Sergeant School. As such, I guarantee any SGT or SSG arriving to that school who sees her will notice a huge void where a combat patch should be, especially because (I believe) the vast majority of new drill sergeant school students will have a patch. Sorry, everybody, but perception is reality. If I show up to be a student there and I see the CSM doesn't have a combat patch, I am not going to hold that person in high regard. It's not "just a patch"; the fact you don't have one says a lot about a person. I promise you I'm not the only person who feels this way.